Leslie Vickrey wrote her chapter for a collaborative book in about an hour. She also pulled her first one from print three times.
If you’ve ever written something vulnerable and then hesitated before publishing, you totally understand.
Leslie is the founder and CEO of ClearEdge, a marketing, recruiting, and leadership development firm for the talent and tech world. She studied journalism and thought she’d go into broadcasting. Then she realized the part she loved most was the writing.
She co-led the Lady Leaders Book Club, a group of 15 women who met on Zoom in March 2020 after a celebration dinner was canceled. That group became a virtual family, and then two books: Together We Rise and Rising With Courage.
In this conversation, Leslie talks about writing her second chapter while she was still in the hardest season of her leadership — writing from the wound, not the scar.
She shares why most women still say no when she invites them to speak, and the question she asks whenever doubt creeps in: Is this fear leading, or is this me leading?
We also talk about AI. Because Leslie runs a marketing agency, people ask her about it constantly. Her answer: we’re human-led, AI-enabled. The ideas and the lived experience stay hers.
And she has a nudge for you … Write your story. From childhood on. Nobody ever has to read it.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
How a high school interview assignment showed Leslie the power of making someone feel seen
Why she writes best on airplanes and late at night
How a canceled dinner in March 2020 became a book club, a virtual family, and two books
What it was like having 14 co-authors critique her chapter idea
Writing a vulnerable chapter while still in the middle of it, and why it felt like “the best medicine”
Her “evil DJ” and how she changes the song
Her human-led, AI-enabled approach
The solo book that might be waiting
Takeaways
Ask who's leading. When you hesitate to publish, pitch, or say yes, ask: Is this fear leading, or is this me? Fear tells convincing fiction.
When it pours out, pay attention. Leslie wrote her chapter in an hour because it was what she was meant to write. The story you're forcing might not be the one you're meant to tell.
You can write from the wound. Writing while you're still in it can help you let go. You decide later what to share and when.
Your old story might not be your current one. Leslie's co-authors told her she wasn't that leader anymore. Sometimes you need outside eyes to see who you've become.
Keep the human part human. Use AI as a thought partner and formatter. The ideas, the lived experience, and the voice stay yours.
Nobody notices what you missed. She skipped her closing line on stage. Ran out of pizza at her party. Nobody knew until she told them. Hit publish.
Write your story just for you. Start with childhood. Write it down. It may become a book, or posts, or a gift for your kids. Or it may stay yours.
Meet Leslie
Leslie Vickrey is an entrepreneur, author, podcast host, and passionate advocate for helping women find their voices, build confidence, and lead with courage. For more than 20 years, she's built a career helping companies and people tell their stories while learning the power of sharing her own.
Leslie is the founder and CEO of ClearEdge, a marketing agency specializing in helping staffing, recruiting, and workforce solutions companies strengthen their brands, accelerate growth, and connect with the audiences that matter most. She is also the co-founder of ARA, an organization dedicated to attracting, retaining, and advancing women in technology.
A co-author of Together We Rise and Rising with Courage: A Guide to Life and Leadership, Leslie also hosts two podcasts, TheEdge and Honestly, We're Learning. Through her writing, conversations, and advocacy, she shares candid lessons from her own journey while encouraging others to challenge expectations, embrace their stories, and recognize the power of their voices.
Leslie serves on the Board of Advisors for New ERA ADR, VMS Professionals, and Central Michigan University's College of Business Administration, which honored her with its Distinguished Alumni Award. She was inducted into the UIC Entrepreneurship Hall of Fame, recognized as an Enterprising Woman of the Year, and named to Staffing Industry Analysts' DEI Influencer list three consecutive years. A frequent industry speaker, Leslie shares insights on marketing, AI, entrepreneurship, and leadership.
Leslie lives in Breckenridge, Colorado, with her husband and son. Outside of work, you'll find her biking, skiing, hiking with her two dogs, or playing hockey with the Breck Betties.
Connect with Leslie
Leslie Vickrey on LinkedIn (her favorite place to connect)
Together We Rise by The Lady Leaders Book Club
Rising With Courage: A Practical Guide to Life and Leadership by The Lady Leaders Book Club
How Women Rise by Sally Helgesen and Marshall Goldsmith
Updates from Jacqueline
Finding Flow: Breathe New Life into Your Substack is underway. It’s not a challenge — it’s an activation. A daily prompt, a weekly live call with time to write, and the feeling of moving forward again. We run new moon to new moon, through December 7th. Joining late? Watch the replays and dive in.
The Constellation Writing Retreat is open by application. Four nights in a beach house on Anna Maria Island, January 26–30, for memoir and personal essay. A 1:1 session before, during, and after is included, so you arrive knowing exactly what you’re working on. Early bird pricing ends November 20th.
The Billet Season — my book about the year my son played junior hockey and lived with a host family. I’m writing it out loud, one chapter a week, free.
And I’m talking to camera on Instagram every day for six months. Short, unpolished, 15 minutes max. Come say hi at @theintuitivewritingschool.
Connect with Jacqueline/Other Links
-
Jacqueline: [00:00:00] Hey, it's Jacqueline Fisch. Welcome to the How Women Write podcast. Before I bring you today's guest, which I'm really excited for you to meet, I want to share a quick update from my desk where I'm sitting. Finding Flow: Breathe New Life into your Substack is now underway. We just began on Monday with the November new moon in Scorpio, and we close on the next one, December 7th.
It is not a writing challenge. I do not believe in writing challenges, and I don't believe that you need to write every day to call yourself a writer. I also think it's actually a great way, I mean, following a writing challenge, to lose connection with your voice and to burn out. Instead, I see this as an experience and an activation.
You get a daily prompt. We have a weekly live call that's about an hour to 90 minutes [00:01:00] with built-in time to do the writing, and most importantly, giving you the feeling of moving forward again, loving writing again, or even loving it for the first time. There's still time to join us. You're hearing this after we started.
You can watch the first replay and dive right in. There are actually a few people joining late, and that's fine. That's just how it goes. There's no really late. You're still welcome. The link to join is in the show notes. And I've also announced my first in-person writing retreat. I'm really excited about this.
It's called the Constellation Writing Retreat. I just love that word constellation. We will spend four nights in a beach house on Anna Maria Island, end of January. It is for memoir, personal essay. There's six rooms some of them are spoken for, but every room has its own private bathroom. It's by application only.[00:02:00]
Also for women. Early bird pricing ends soon, so if you've been carrying a story around for years and want to write it in a safe container, I'm also offering a one-on-one session before, during, and after. And this is included because I want you to arrive to the week, knowing exactly what you're working on.
All right, today's conversation, Leslie Vickrey, she runs a marketing agency, ... We're connected in the online world- 15 years ago, a long time ago. We were introduced by a good friend of hers, and I met that good friend of hers through my husband. I just love the way connections work. So I've been aware of her and have followed her online for years, and followed her journey, and she's written in two anthologies with 14 other women.
In today's episode, you'll hear how she pulled her first chapter from print three times. Three. She kept [00:03:00] questioning herself, "Should my sister read this first? Should I check with my dad? Should my mom read this?" I hear this all the time from writers. For her second book, she wrote her chapter in under an hour, while she was still very much in the experience.
So it's really interesting to see the contrast between writing something and doubting yourself, and then writing and it pours out in an hour. And that's how you know that what you just wrote is what you needed to write, and I'm really excited for you to hear that story. We talk about why that happened, about the evil DJ in your head.
I love this name for it. If you end up adopting this, please let me know. And you'll also hear the one question she asks herself when fear starts steering the wheel, and why you should write your whole story even if no one ever reads it. I love this so much. Here's [00:04:00] Leslie.
Speaker: Leslie Vickery is here with me. She's the founder and CEO of ClearEdge., She started out as a journalism grad and thought she'd go into broadcasting, and then she realized the part she loved was the writing.
She co-led the Lady Leaders Book Club, loved this so much, and helped bring 15 women's stories together in Together We she also has a podcast and talks often about marketing, AI, and lifting other women up. And she's joining us from the mountains of Breckenridge. Leslie, welcome.
Leslie: Indeed. Chilly Breckenridge, thank you. It's
Speaker: a big day. Is it chilly already?
Leslie: Listen, it's a big day here. A-Basin opened today, and it's always a competition of which ski resort's going to open first, how many have more runs first, who stays open the longest. So A-Basin's open. They win for the year as usual.
But yeah it's getting chilly. The mountains are getting covered in snow, and we're excited for it.
Speaker: I had no idea it started that early. That is [00:05:00] intense.
Leslie: Yes, yes. We even have festivals here.
Ullerfest is huge, where it's like praying to the snow god for lots of snow, so it's a thing. Yeah. It's our, you know, it's our livelihood here. When you live in a tourist town, you know, being in Florida-
Speaker: Mm-hmm ...
Leslie: there's different things that drive people here. For us, it's definitely in the winter, skiing.
So the more snow, the better for our economy here.
Speaker: Yeah. Speaking of snow, I wanna dive in right there. Do you find you write more or have more concentration with the snowy weather? It feels cozy.
Leslie: I- doesn't it? I wish. I keep wanting to find that moment. In my head, yes, I envision myself sitting down, it could be a cup of coffee, a journal, whatever it may be, and doing a lot more thinking and writing.
And I think in our heads when we moved out to Colorado five years ago, we thought we'd have more of that time, but we really do not. [00:06:00] So no. Maybe eventually I will have that, but things haven't slowed down enough for me to do that. But I write all day throughout the day in different ways. But yeah, I need to carve out that time-
Speaker: Yeah
for sure. You'll get there. Yeah. And yeah, there's nothing more romantic sounding than- Sitting with a journal and a cup of something hot while it's snowing outside. But if you ski, of course you're like, "I need to go outside and do that." I need to be
Leslie: outside. Yeah. That's the one thing here is being active.
It's a huge part of our lives, and usually if I'm outside, we're doing something really active.
Speaker: Yeah.
Leslie: Yeah.
Speaker: I love that about Colorado. Any time I've visited, I've just noticed how everyone ... There's no bad weather. Everyone is doing something outside. Right.
Leslie: Exactly. Yeah. We love all temps here.
Speaker: . Leslie, tell us a little bit about your reading and writing experiences growing up. Were you always with a nose in a book?
Leslie: Yeah. It's funny. Looking back on that, and you mentioned studying journalism, I always thought [00:07:00] I was going to be a journalist, so I think back to even my younger years or
You know, I have a 10-year-old son who every night he, for school, he needs to read for 30 minutes, and then recap a summary of it and all of the things, so it takes me back to thinking, you know, what did I like to read about, and how did I put that into practice? And those journalism instincts of interviewing people, being really curious, wanting to ask a lot of questions, getting to know them, like really getting to know them, and purpose behind things.
So think like mystery novels, detectives, things of that nature, like little kid things where, that was really import- spy book things like that where I'd always want to, know what was happening, and how was something happening. And that really then translated as I went into school and started thinking about what I wanted to do and what I wanted to be.
It started actually in high school [00:08:00] in an English class interviewing another student, and I talk about it a little bit in my book where we had to interview different students, and I got a student who I didn't know very well, but I knew he, was teased a lot, kinda bullied a lot.
Mm-hmm. And I had just moved to the school district it was going into 10th grade. I remember getting assigned to him and interviewing him, and him reading the story after, and other students reading the story after, and him feeling like, "Wow, I'm finally seen for the first time. People see me for who I really am, what I love to do, all of the things of my background."
It was almost like he wasn't seen before, and now he could be seen. Mm-hmm. And I loved that. That was kind of my initial entree into what I wanted to write about, which was, other people, interviewing other people and telling their stories, which is why [00:09:00] naturally journalism was something that I wanted to go into.
Speaker: I love that. And I read that story in your book. It was so heartwarming, and I can just imagine that kid totally seen in a new light, which also reminds us how powerful our words are.
Leslie: Oh my gosh, the power of words, and, we're going through it with our own son in school right now. In fact, it's funny, not ha-ha funny, I was going to write the school to say, this age, fifth grade, fourth, fifth, sixth grade, kids are kind of coming into their own, and the teasing and name-calling and different things that they don't realize how much that can stick with someone for the rest of their life.
And knowing that that evolution is so critical and important to address, which I know we'll talk a little bit about as well, people being open to sharing their story and writing about themselves and what it takes to do that. Sometimes it takes going through those moments and having those aha moments, seeing [00:10:00] the reaction of other people to the words you write to really encourage them to do the same.
Speaker: That's such a pivotal age. I'm glad that he has you as that advocate of knowing how important it is to know that everyone's creating their perceptions of each other and themselves, and the bullying, the teasing, and the importance of that in writing. And I hear a lot of people probably starting around fifth grade, fifth, sixth, seventh, where they start, they sometimes cite that they had a terrible English teacher at that time.
So I think it's- ... even more important that they're sharing these stories.
Leslie: Yeah. I think so too.
Speaker: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you built a whole career around storytelling- Yeah ... not necessarily journalism directly, but in marketing- Right ... like helping clients find their voice. What does your own writing practice look like these days?
Leslie: Like you said earlier about sitting outside and writing in the snow, like with the snow falling and all of the things, and being cozy and writing, I wish that [00:11:00] I had a routine sometimes. I don't wake up in the morning and journal. For me, that's just not ... the reality of my day. I would say I'm writing constantly and everywhere.
One of the places I love to write, I love taking trips and writing on planes. For me, I don't know if it's because I'm not really interrupted or my brain can't multitask on a lot of different things. It kind of forces me to, sit and be calm and get some words out. So I love blocking flight time.
I always said if I could fly every Friday from New York to California, I would have so many pieces written because that's where- Yeah ... I find a lot of peace in doing that. And then actually at night. A lot of times my writing time is between putting my son to bed and me going to bed. My husband's already asleep.
The house is quiet. The dogs are sleeping. They're not running around. It's dark outside. It's peaceful. And for [00:12:00] me, that's often a time where if I need to write. So for me writing, it could be a LinkedIn post, it could be an article, a keynote presentation, an internal communication, something I'm writing on behalf of a client.
Last night, I've got a panel coming up that I'm moderating in two weeks, and I spent last night writing out that panel and really thinking through the topic and what would people wanna hear in the audience and the questions. For me, that's usually what I'm writing, and I love it, but I need that kind of, quiet time I think sometimes at night and airplanes.
I can sit in coffee shops and write as well. So it's something that is part of my being and that I do throughout the day every day, but usually it's at night when I find myself most productive in that standpoint.
Speaker: Hmm. I'm with you on the airplane writing.
Leslie: Yeah?
Speaker: I love it. I've said maybe it's 'cause I'm in the sky, and I'm like I'm above everything.
I don't buy the Wi-Fi or connect it. Yeah. And I [00:13:00] just write. And the stuff that comes through, and I think you're right, it's because there's no other demands. Right. I don't have 10 tabs open. I'm not distracted. But I love how you recreated that in the evenings 'cause it's dark, it's quiet, the dogs are calm, everyone's sleeping.
Leslie: Yes.
Speaker: Kind of the same vibe on a plane.
Leslie: Yes, exactly. You're right. That's a really good point.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that. So your book that you brought 15 women together, and I know what a challenge it is to bring a lot of voices together. Back when I was in consulting, having, creating a proposal with a bunch of different voices, like, that was one thing, and that was not a creative- Right
work at all. But this, in a book, in Together We Rise, tell us about the spark for that book and what it was like bringing all those voices together.
Leslie: It's, I would say, one of the greatest experiences of my career was really bringing all of these people together, and the power of the [00:14:00] output of what we wrote and what those words meant to so many different people.
So we now have two books, Together We Rise and Rising With Courage. Rising With Courage just came out, and it really stemmed out of the pandemic. So not surprising, a lot of things came out of that. But right before the pandemic in March of 2020, I was hosting a dinner as part of a conference in Miami for someone who's part of the group, Joyce Russell.
She was publishing her first book. And I had said to Joyce, "I'd really love to celebrate you and host a dinner," and she had given me a couple of names of people she wanted to invite, and then I curated the rest of the list. And what was interesting is a lot of the people didn't know each other. And the intention was to go to this dinner, celebrate Joyce, and, really be there to support her and to support each other.
Well, that conference got canceled. That dinner was supposed to be on Monday. The conference got canceled the Friday before due to COVID, and we [00:15:00] decided to do what most people were doing at that time. We hosted a Zoom. Yeah. And we got on a Zoom and had Joyce share the story behind her book, and in that moment, one of the 15 women said, "You know, we should start a book club."
And that's how it originally started and why it's called the Lady Leaders Book Club, because that's exactly what we did. And interestingly at that time, a lot of authors, as you can imagine, they make their kind of living keynote speaking at different places. Well, they were no longer able to keynote speak, so we were able to get some really great authors to speak to our group and come in and, give their time To us to share their journeys.
And we had one author in particular come to us probably, I don't know, eight months into it, and she heard our story, not just of coming together for a book club, but what ended up transpiring after that. So you have 15 people, again, a lot of the people didn't [00:16:00] know each other. In that group, we had someone who had just quit their corporate job before and started their own company.
We had a couple of people who now were running global companies who never had... It could be private equity, never had that experience. Publicly traded, never had that experience. And we had to pull together as a group during one of the worst moments in our lives. Yeah. We had, you know, death, we had loss of jobs, we had so many different challenges that people were going through.
So in addition to authors, we kept pulling in experts to come talk to the group. So it could be someone who specialized in the private equity world and coming in to talk to us about that, or analysts who specialize in our industry to keep this group informed on what was happening. And what happened is we ended up, doing business together and supporting each other, but we also took it a step further where Joyce, for example, had brought [00:17:00] in a chef to teach us how to make homemade lasagna and this incredible meal.
It was like we were becoming a virtual family. We were cooking together, we were working out together, we were supporting each other. And when we shared that story with s- one of the authors who came to the group, she said, "You all should write your own book." Her name's Michelle Prince with Performance Publishing, and she ended up publishing our first book.
And, you know, like a lot of Type A executives in one- Yeah ... virtual Zoom room, the second she said that, we all said yes, but we had no idea what that meant. We didn't know anything about the process, and she really held our hands and guided us through it. And then I worked closely with her to pull all of it together.
And, it's one thing to say yes to something, but we all learned a lot about ourselves and each other of what that process meant. Sticking to deadlines for publishing books. What was your chapter going to be about? And wondering what would people [00:18:00] care to hear. And then you start getting in your head, and this is where it becomes hard to tell your own story.
Would people even care about your story? What would they take away from that? And really understanding how to frame that in a chapter, even though it's only a chapter. It's still telling a whole life story in a chapter is, is difficult. And then being vulnerable enough to take that story.
I pulled it off of print probably three times because of my own paranoia of my own story- ... where I then thought, "Oh, gosh, should I have my sister read that? Should I have, my dad read this? What about my mom?" And I started getting in my head because I had so many personal things in there. And, at some point you have to just say, "Print," and send it.
And then, then it's, people reading it, and, the courage to even put it out there, and then the courage to get on stage and share that story. All of those things it was way more difficult than I think any one of us [00:19:00] could have imagined. And, some went deeply personal and some did not.
And then in the second book, some who did not did, and then others who did the first time did not. So it was really interesting to see, what kind of transpired. The beautiful thing is it's a quick read, but it's a I would say, a, a read where you're going to get... I haven't heard of anyone who hasn't gotten something out of o- it's 15 stories.
Yes. You're going to take something out of that, and, hopefully from multiple stories. And if not you know of someone who will benefit from it, and you can pay it forward to gift it to them or share the story with them. And that, to me, was really the greatest gift coming out of it, was just to see the reactions of it.
I just spoke at a conference two weeks ago- For the first time sharing the Rising With Courage story live on stage, and afterwards a woman came up in tears, and then I started crying. And she, for the first time, had heard another entrepreneur [00:20:00] talk about what she was going through, but yet she didn't really have anyone to talk to about it.
And to actually feel, the pain that I went through for herself to see she's not alone was hugely rewarding.
Speaker: Yeah. That is everything. I have a copy of Rising With Courage, and I have, like you said, I've got dog-eared pages, I've got some underlinings, and I love being able to hear from a group of people.
It's so rich. When you were approached with this and you said yes right away, was it challenging to land on a topic? How did you come up with that?
Leslie: So this is interesting. Together We Rise, no one ... Only myself and Lauren Jones had read the book before it was published. No one had really read each other's chapters before.
Oh. And again, some people talked about personal life situations, some talked about career, but [00:21:00] somehow it worked. And even further than that, some of the people had never even met in person until the book launched. But yet, through virtual connections and our Lady Leaders Book Club, we all had this common bond, but no one really shared their stories with each other.
I'm sure a couple would say like, "Hey, would you read this?" But book, cover to cover, no one read the whole book other than Lauren and I just for editing purposes. The second book was fascinating because we did it differently. We came up with a theme, which was, the rising with courage, and then each person had to come up with a theme for their chapter.
Mm-hmm. Mine was leading with courage. And this time we all met in Miami during a conference, and we came with our chapter ideas, and we sat in the middle of the room with every one of the, you know, 14 other authors sitting there critiquing your chapter. So it was a whole different experience. And what I [00:22:00] actually presented to them a couple of them, I think it was Joyce and Sue, had said, "You know, Leslie, in your first chapter in the book, you talked a lot about imposter syndrome and self-esteem, and all of the things that impacted you from childhood to that moment."
And they said, "That's not you as a leader anymore. You as a leader are someone totally different." So almost like you gotta stop leaning into that. And, you know, l- not let that go, but show the other leader who you are today, and focus in on a story that other entrepreneurs could relate to. So that was really fascinating because I thought it was such a strong story going in, which it is a strong story- Yeah
but it wasn't the story I was meant to tell in the second book. So it really forced me to, again, kind of dig deep and come up with it. And ultimately- At the time, my chapter, it was what I was literally [00:23:00] going through in that moment as a leader, which was a really difficult time as a leader, and I talk about it in the chapter of realizing sometimes that the problem within the company isn't the company itself.
It... I had to realize it was actually me and my leadership style and what I was doing within the company to hold it back. And I wrote that chapter probably within an hour because it was my story- Yeah ... and my experience and what I was going through. I know we talked a little bit about AI and the use of AI and different things of that nature.
My chapter is 100% me. It's my story. And you can, leverage AI to help look at things like are there any other angles, or we have questions at the end. You know, like, what questions would people wanna ask or know about? Or this is my audience, does this story resonate with it? So it almost became like a co-editor with me to look at it and give me feedback.
In addition to this time, having other authors within [00:24:00] the book and the publishing company. We had a lot more review this time and a lot more input and feedback into that. But you know, when it's your own story that you're telling, as difficult as it is sometimes to hit print or talk about it, live and publicly and say those words out loud, I have to tell you, writing it was, like, the best medicine.
It was so cathartic for me to sit there and get it out. It really was a huge relief, so I loved it.
Speaker: Wow. Writing about something when you are in it , that's challenging, but like you mentioned, it can be healing, too. Yeah. And the fact that you wrote it in an hour, I think that's also a clue.
I hear this from so many women I talk to, that that was what you were meant to write, when it just falls out, it pours out. Yeah. Like, when you have to force yourself and you're pushing and grinding and thinking and figuring it out, that's when it's, I don't know, it feels sticky. Yeah. But when it just comes out like that- So you [00:25:00] were, and your share is quite vulnerable in there.
Like, how in it were you in it at that time? They talk about writing from the wound versus the scar. Was it, were you still a little bit in the wound phase when you were writing this?
Leslie: For sure. Yeah. And still, , I lead from the heart.
Mm-hmm. And everything I do comes from the heart, and sometimes as a leader, that can hold you back from making really difficult decisions. So I felt hurt and wounded and taken advantage of, and a lot of different things that I had to, and I quote Brené Brown in it too, I had to let go of certain things.
And I think writing it actually helped me let go of feelings that I was feeling, and that was a really important, part of that journey. So it was still, I mean, it was definitely we were past a certain point, all the resignations I talked about, things of that nature. That was behind us, [00:26:00] but, we still had new divisions.
We still, had hard and difficult decisions that we needed to make, and I needed to step into that chapter of leadership for the company. And I would say that was definitely in the going from, the wound to scar, um, phase. Yeah. It was definitely really real for me at that point.
Speaker: Yeah.
That alone is such a huge act of courage and vulnerability, being able to do that. That is a big deal. I love that, how that project came together too, 15 women, which I can also imagine is intimidating, and you're like, "Here's my idea. What do you think?" And, even just sharing that idea and then having feedback on it, like, "Oh, no, not that."
Leslie: Right. Well, It's hard ... go from the first where we didn't do that to-
Speaker: Yeah,
Leslie: yeah ... the second where it was completely different. And I, you know, I don't know. If we did a third, I'm not sure if there's a better or different, way to keep doing it, but it was helpful to get the feedback.
And [00:27:00] you're right, it's even vulnerable in that moment to sit there and do it. But it was like having 14 editors there giving you notes, you know- ... to take and what to consider. For me, it definitely, it helped. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So with all these women, and you also, all your work is about lifting women up in some way, and the books did that too.
What do you see holding women back from using their voice in writing?
Leslie: It's such a fascinating- question, and I think there's so much that holds women back unfortunately. I don't know if you've ever read the book How Women Rise. I talk about it a lot. It's a, a book that talks about 12 habits that can hold women back professionally, and again, it's called How Women Rise.
Not to be confused- I'm writing that down right now ... not to be confused with Together We Rise or Rising With Courage, but- Yes ... How Women Rise, and it's 12 habits that hold women back professionally, and I think a lot of these habits [00:28:00] actually lead to why it's difficult for us to, really write about something personal, get on stage.
I can't tell you how many people will ask to moderate panels, to be on a panel, to speak at an event, and I would say probably 80 to 90% of the time the women say no. Wow. Even if I'm offering to help coach them, even if it's on a topic they know, it's a no. And coming out of this book, different things stand out.
One is w- women tend to have a reluctance to claim their achievements, and another one is, we don't often... W- we, we expect other people to Give us accolades and reward our contributions instead of us saying something about it. And I think about that a lot. So we're raised a lot to be humble. You know, don't brag about your different achievements or accomplishments.
Don't draw [00:29:00] too much attention, to yourself. And I think those childhood lessons for girls end up turning into struggles that women have throughout their careers and in business that we're meant to be small and not take up too much space, when the reality is that there's a lot we have to give and to contribute.
So I think of myself and my own issues with imposter syndrome and confidence, and definitely stemmed from childhood, how that played into my career. And then I think because I went through it personally, it's easier for me to relate to people who are going through that, and to see it in them, and to remind them that, and this is what I had to come to for myself too, what people saw in me isn't what I saw in myself.
So when I looked in the mirror, I saw something, and still do to a certain degree, totally different than what other people see in me. And other people struggle with that too. So where [00:30:00] I might meet with you and see something, and have this tremendous experience, you might leave and be in your head thinking, "Why did I say that?
I should have said this. I should never even had that conversation with her. I can't believe this." And we ruminate, and we, talk down about ourselves to our own selves. And, that is something that we have to work hard on and be there to support each other. So I think often for me it's I can spot it, I can help coach it, and I can relate to it, and I think that relatability is something that people appreciate.
And then I can try to help push people to get outside of their comfort zone and show how, sometimes it's for the greater good of helping other people realize that they're not alone. By sharing your story and talking about it, they... Someone will relate to it and say, "I felt that way too."
And now they know, "I'm not alone. Someone else is going through that." Mm-hmm. And it's okay to talk about that publicly.
Speaker: For sure. When or [00:31:00] if those thoughts ever creep up for you, do you have a strategy to squash it right away or move it along? Or what do you do?
Leslie: That's a great question. I have coined it, and I didn't come up with this term my sister Vicky actually had shared it with me, and it came out of some of Sheryl Sandberg's work that she does.
But I call it my evil DJ, and it's where that same song keeps playing over and over in your head, and you want to turn it off and, start a new soundtrack in your head that is more positive. So for me, I have to just remember, to the evil DJ, you kinda have to say it to yourself that, it's not the reality.
There's fact and there's, fiction, and sometimes fiction creeps into our brains and our minds and tells us things that aren't true. And I also talk about in the chapter leading with fear, and I often would allow fear [00:32:00] to tell me things like, "Oh, give that person one other chance."
" Who would you be letting down if you let that person go? What would that mean?" Even though they may not be performing well at the company, I would allow that fear to kind of creep in. And now, you have to ask yourself literally, "Is this fear leading or is this me leading?"
And if I am letting fear lead, why? What is happening in my life? What am I telling myself that is probably fiction and not fact that I need to- ... retrain that story a little bit.
Speaker: I love that advice, and I think that applies to writing too. Is this fear leading or really me?
Leslie: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
That's important.
Leslie: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Speaking about fiction, let's talk about AI.
Leslie: Yes.
Speaker: You talk a lot about AI. Where does it fit into your own writing? Is there any place where you draw the line?
Leslie: Yeah. Well, I mean, for us, for myself, - I'll start with me, and obviously I run a marketing agency, and so a lot of...
I was just on a call today and a client had said, "Well, I hope your business is [00:33:00] doing okay. You do a lot of writing, you know. Is AI taking over for that?" Or I talk to a lot of students, journalism students, and just students who are focused on communications and writing worried about AI taking over their job.
And, to me, it's really we are human-led and AI-enabled. Mm-hmm. And, certainly you need to know how to leverage AI to your benefit and use it in a variety of ways. If you don't, then a writer or an expert in marketing or someone who does could, could take your job, so you're at risk of falling behind.
But I would say that's true with any trend or technology or something that comes up that you need to stay on top of. AI is definitely one of those. I'll give you a real-world example. I love writing out scripts for events and panels. I love moderating panels and coming up with the storyline.
So I mentioned last night I [00:34:00] was working on a panel I have coming up in a couple of weeks, which also happens to be on AI and sales, so how sales reps can improve their jobs by leveraging AI. And, a lot of people are worried about losing their jobs because of AI. Well, I leveraged AI in that moment to say, you know, "Here's the audience.
Here's the, you know, other two speakers. Here's their LinkedIn profiles. Here's the topic. Here's the audience. Here's my thinking." My whole thinking on this here's how I like to write flows for events, and I literally time out, you know, if I have two speakers and an hour, I've got it-- I've done this for so many years, I have it pretty well mapped out how much time you need for introductions, how much time you need for Q&A.
I'm gonna budget three minutes a person for each question. Maybe they'll answer it in two, but inevitably someone will go four. And I need 15 minutes for Q&A. So I [00:35:00] leverage AI to help me create the whole show flow for that. What's that timing look like? Where am I asking questions?
Who's better suited for the question? And then I can go back and forth with it to say, "But you know, I think on this..." It's almost like that thought partner, but the original thought, the original ideas, that human-led piece is my thinking and my ideas, and now I can leverage it to make me faster, to make sure I'm thinking through everything to get a really solid first draft of that show flow.
Something that could've taken me, probably, it could've been up to three hours usually. It's down to about an hour and, that's really fantastic. And by the way, formatting it where, I just would format it in Word. Now it's in this beautiful format where, the impact of the person receiving it, they're gonna say, "Wow, look at this.
This is so professional," and everything is prepared for me. It makes it easier for people to say yes to being on panels working with [00:36:00] me because I take that time. But I love it. It's a passion, but I do leverage AI to help me just think through it and look at things differently.
Speaker: I love that.
I'm 100% with you on that kind of flow. Like the original idea comes from you, and then you use it to make it better. And then when people get the output, they see how much care and time and thought and energy you put into it, and even presenting it in a nice way, like with- Right ... the formatting, whereas you could spend hours just formatting something- Oh my god
and that's not the best use of your skills.
Leslie: It's not the best use, yeah. Mine is the idea time. That's why I think that human led-- and I will-- I've trained it to say what are the AI tells, you know, for LinkedIn or different things- Mm-hmm ... that you're doing. You wanna make sure that it feels like you.
It is your voice, and only I know my voice best. And yes, it'll continue to get to know it and improve on it and come pretty close, but I lived my life. I lived my experiences. I know my truth. I [00:37:00] know my tone, my voice, the passion I put into things, how things come from my heart. That's human led. AI can enable me to do, things faster or make it stronger, but it's certainly not going to replace me.
Speaker: Absolutely. Speaking of your stories and your experiences, is there a solo book in you? Curious what you're writing these days.
Leslie: Oh, gosh. Well, I think there's probably a book in me. It's interesting, when we went through the first exercise of learning just to even write the chapter, the process that Michelle took us through, it was fascinating because everyone was like, "Well, that, that's a chapter, that's a chap-" You start realizing that different points of your leadership journey are a chapter of itself, or your lifespan are chapters in and of itself.
So I can definitely visualize what that could be like, and, I've had to learn a lot over the years and really push myself to be a stronger leader. So even the chapter that you read [00:38:00] in, Rising With Courage, there's 20 years that went into-- There was a failed partnership that I haven't talked about publicly.
There's, a lot around just being a female business owner and entrepreneur that I haven't talked about that I've gone through. I talk about sometimes in speeches, but not in a book, that I think there's always, lessons there. And listen, I'm always learning and growing, so I think every day there's something new that I'm learning and taking away.
So I don't have anything in the works right now. And I know it won't be a book about having all the answers, because I certainly don't. But if at some point I feel like, what I have to share others could benefit from and see, certainly there. Even just journey with becoming a mom at 43 and, how you run a company and raise a family and figure out all of the things, I think there's a lot I'm still learning about that, but a lot I think I could give, too.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. It sounds like you have at least half a dozen books.
Leslie: Yeah. I know. You're gonna
Speaker: need a few plane rides.
Leslie: Whatever I have to write. Yeah. Well, and I always [00:39:00] share, too, you know, if you think about it, if you took all of-- And I write a lot of vulnerable LinkedIn posts, but if you were to... I give advice to a lot of people when we sit down and they'll say, "I'm not sure what I wanna do next with my career.
I'm not sure about this," I will say, "Have you ever written down your story?"
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: They're like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "From childhood on, have you ever sat and just wrote? Like, write your story. No one ever needs to read it." Or they could, or your kids could. Yeah. But take the time to write your story, and to really sit and remember all of those different experiences and the journey you were on.
And a friend of mine actually did it, and she is realized one of the most beautiful writers. Her story is incredible, and what a gift she's gonna have to give her daughter. In the meantime, she's publishing pieces of it out as blogs or different pieces of content. And you can see this book is coming together, on its own.
But sometimes it's [00:40:00] really fascinating to take yourself back to just... You don't even need to think of it, the pressure of the book. Just write out your story. Yeah. And it's one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself, I think.
Speaker: 100% with you. I totally agree with that, and recommend that to women I coach too.
Just write your story. You don't have to share it.
Leslie: Yeah,
Speaker: it can
Leslie: be your own.
Speaker: And- It- Yeah
Leslie: Yeah.
Speaker: And especially, like framing it as the book, it can feel big and scary. Or even if they haven't published online, or even writing a LinkedIn post about something, sometimes that can feel vulnerable 'cause they're like- Yeah
people are gonna read it. What if my grammar is not good? Like, -- no one cares about that when they're reading your story on LinkedIn.
Leslie: Well, that's another piece of the book I mentioned how women rise the perfection trap.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Leslie: We get stuck in perfection. I, listen, I'm the same way. I just hosted this big-- We did a haunted forest at our house last weekend, and it was the first time we did it, and we had probably 30 people, and the next day I kept ruminating over, we ran out of [00:41:00] pizza.
We only had five pizzas, or, gosh, we should have gone back through at night. That would've been so scary and fun. And I kept ruminating and ruminating, like, I am the perfection trap example. It is so bad and so real. And you can see in everyday life with writing in particular, it-- you just-- you almost become such a perfectionist, you can't execute on things.
And that's one of the things that women often struggle with is that per- perfection trap. So you just have to do it. Just put it out there.
Speaker: Yes. Or have the party. Exactly. And I'm sure all your party guests just went home and said, "That was so fun."
Leslie: They had no idea. Well, and that's the thing, you know, when I was on stage a couple weeks ago doing the chapter, it was one of the most challenging speaking opportunities I've ever had because of the format, not because of the content.
It's my content. I can tell the story, but every 30 seconds they forwarded the slide, - And I didn't finish, and no one in the audience knew that. I knew that. Yeah. But no one else knew what my closing line was or what different things were, how I jumped ahead to that [00:42:00] closing line.
But in your head, you can really fall into that perfection trap. But at the end of the day, no one else knew that until I told them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Leslie: So, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. I love that.
Leslie: All right. I feel like I could talk to you
Speaker: for- I
Leslie: love our
Speaker: conversation. No, me too. I know, I know. I have one really quick question I love wrapping with.
When you are writing, what are you drinking?
Leslie: Oh, that's a good question. I'm not a coffee drinker, and I mentioned coffee earlier. It's probably usually wine.
Speaker: Yeah.
Leslie: So yeah, typically wine. Yeah.
Speaker: A little wine to help the words flow.
Leslie: Little bit of wine, little bit of bubbles. Yeah, usually I would say it's typically at night, and often a nice glass of wine with me.
Speaker: Yes.
Leslie: Yeah.
Speaker: So good. Thank you, Leslie, for being here.
Leslie: What's the most common answer, coffee or wine or...?
Speaker: A lot say coffee.
Leslie: Yeah.
Speaker: Or they switch throughout the day. They're like, "I start with coffee, but I was drinking too much, so then it's tea." Yeah. Some are just straight up, "I just drink water."
Leslie: Yeah ... right now I have water, tea- Sparkling water [00:43:00] in a smoothie. How about that? If I'm writing a book at night, it's wine. Otherwise, during the day, it's a mix of a lot of different things.
Speaker: Yeah, there's always a bunch of beverages ready to go on my desk, whatever I got going on.
Yeah. Leslie, I love this. Where can listeners find you online?
Leslie: LinkedIn is probably the best place, , that's usually where I'm publishing most updates about what's happening in all things life.
Speaker: Perfect. We will link to that in the show notes. Leslie, thank you so much for being here.
Leslie: Thanks for having me. Really great. Lots of fun.
Jacqueline: Okay. I'm still thinking about that question. Is this fear leading or is this actually me leading? We know that when fear drives the bus, it's not going to lead us to a great place. We have to acknowledge that fear, know it's there, and still show up and do it anyway. A word that came up many times in this interview, that's actually come up for me many times in the past week, is courage.
[00:44:00] And on that note, I brought up this book in Finding Flow today, Power Versus Force by David R. Hawkins. In it, he has a map of consciousness, and in the middle… So the thinking is that the higher you go, the more, positive the emotions are, and below is negative. So you can look at it as high vibrating, low vibrating.
And in the middle is courage, and courage points both up and down. And I love that courage came up in Leslie's interview and came up in so many of my conversations this week, because having the courage… I'm also listening to the book called The Courage to Be Disliked. I'll link to that in the show notes as well Courage is where it all starts, where we share our writing from, where we publish from.
So we write and then we send it out. I love this question, and I know in [00:45:00] the moment when you're about to hit publish or click send, you imagine another reader reading it, someone you know, your old boss, someone who teased you in elementary school. And then there's Leslie's chapter that she wrote in an hour while she was in it.
And that's my experience, too. When something is ready to be written, it just comes out. When I'm forcing it, like I have to send this essay today, it's Sunday and it needs to go out, which I do promise an essay every Sunday, that's not how I write. If that was going to be the energy that I would be in every time I send my weekly Substack, I wouldn't send it.
I would skip that week, no big deal. I would much rather that than forcing, pushing, grinding, and then second-guessing my writing. I'd rather just get it out. When we're doing that, it's usually a sign that the [00:46:00] writing needs to shift, and around there, the energy needs to shift. I'm also living that right now with the book I'm writing out loud, The Billet Season. I'm sharing roughly one chapter a week, but I'm writing more than that in the back end.
I'm only sharing one chapter a week because I know how it can feel to have an inbox that's overflowing. I want to get that out. And I'm writing it in real time, not completely from the scar. Still, in some pieces it's a little tender and I'm writing from the wound. And honestly, the chapters that you're reading there are very much rough drafts cleaned up just enough so that you can consume them.
I'm aiming to finish the draft by December 20th still. It's a little bit of a push. I feel like I've fallen a little bit behind my own schedule. If I have to move it, that's fine. I do want to publish the book in the spring. It's also the most excited I've been about a piece of [00:47:00] writing that's felt alive for me in quite a long time.
So if you wanna follow along, that's at billetseason.substack.com. And I'm also trying something new on Instagram. I'm actually, I think, going into my third week now talking to camera every day. For at least six months. Short, unpolished, I might have an outtake or two, but my commitment is to spend no more than 15 minutes on it.
I'm not afraid of video, clearly, I'm showing up that way, but the perfection trap would have stopped me from doing this years ago. So you can find me over there on Instagram. The link will be in the notes. I'm changing my Instagram handle too with part of this strategy. For now, you should find it at the Intuitive Writing School.
More on that later. Here's my invitation to you this week, and Leslie said it best: write your story from the beginning. No one ever needs to read it. It is for you [00:48:00] or maybe for your family. Decide what to do with it after, but simply write it. And if you want company while you do that, I'd love to see you inside Finding Flow or on the beach in January. The links are in the show notes. Leslie's on LinkedIn, and you'll also find all her links in the show notes as well. So until next time, write your story. And if you're not sure where to begin, just start with one honest sentence, and then another, and then another.
Keep going for an hour. Keep going no matter how many tries it takes. I'll see you next week.
